“Do not seek out mediums and spiritists; do not seek out and be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God.” (Leviticus 19:31)
Author Richard Burns, better known as Dick B., has been churning out books and articles on the alleged Christian origin of Alcoholics Anonymous for years. The prolific author has written Anne Smith’s Journal, Dr. Bob and His Library, and many, many others. Regrettably, in his nearly thirty books Dick B. has never acknowledged the influence of spiritualism upon the creation of the 12 Steps.
His books, however, have deeply influenced the Body of Christ. People frequently justify A.A. attendance with statements like, “Well, Alcoholics Anonymous was originally Christian.” Or, “The 12 Steps are based on the Bible.” A common misconception is that one or both Alcoholics Anonymous cofounders, Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob Smith, were Christians.[1] (Read)
In A.A. circles the cofounders are affectionately known as Dr. Bob and Bill W. Promoting one of his more recent titles, The Conversion of Bill W., Dick B. writes, “It’s an account of the many ways the Creator seems to have touched the life of Bill W. and, through him, the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous.”[2]
The title alone gives the impression that A.A. cofounder Bill Wilson came to Christ. It is certainly true that Wilson was used powerfully and spiritually—but not by the God of the Bible. Wilson, in bondage to spiritualism, communed for decades with unclean spirits. This should be of paramount concern because Wilson was not only the cofounder of Alcoholics Anonymous, but also the man who wrote the 12 Steps.
Because there are so many movies, television shows, and novels glorifying communication with the spirit world, many in the Body of Christ may be unaware how fiercely the Lord our God forbids attempts to contact the dead.
“There shall not be found among you…a medium or a spiritist or one who calls up the dead. For whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord.” (Deuteronomy 18:10, 11, 12)
Why does the Lord declare people who do such things “detestable?” Because they have turned to a spiritual source other than the Lord God. This is a clear indication of a complete lack of Fear of the Lord. In addition, it is never the dead that are contacted but, rather, deceitful spirits posing as the dead. These spiritualistic practices therefore simultaneously disrespect the Lord and place those who undertake them at risk.
Examined over several decades, it is clear A.A. cofounder Bill Wilson repeatedly and willingly gave himself over to familiar spirits. A.A. historian Ernest Kurtz notes, “So profound was Bill’s immersion in this area that he at times confused the terms ‘spiritualism’ and ‘spirituality.’”[3]
“As for the person who turns to mediums and spiritists, to play the harlot after them, I will also set My Face against that person and will cut him off from his people.” (Leviticus 20:6)
In PASS IT ON, A.A.’s official biography of Bill Wilson, Lois Wilson recounts some of her husband’s experiences of 1941. Saturday was generally the scheduled day for these psychic adventures. “Bill would lie down on the couch. He would ‘get’ these things. He kept doing it every week or so. Each time, certain people would ‘come in.’ Sometimes, it would be new ones, and they’d carry on some story.”[4]
So, “every week or so,” Wilson would open himself to this entity (or entities), and “certain people would ‘come in.’” Today this is known as channeling. Author and A.A. apologist Dick B. has written of Wilson’s spiritualism, but gives it no emphasis as a factor in the origin of either A.A. or the 12 Steps.
Writer Matthew J. Raphael is far less coy. A member of Alcoholics Anonymous himself, Raphael observes, “it might be said for the cofounders at least, A.A. was entangled with spiritualism from the very beginning.”[5]
Raphael explains, “Wilson himself seems to have been an ‘adept,’ that is, ‘gifted’ in the psychic sense; and he served as a medium for a variety of ‘controls,’ some of them recurrent. ‘Controls,’ in the lingo of spiritualism, are the discarnate entities who seem to usurp a medium’s identity and literally speak through him or (far more usually) her. Sometimes a control answers questions; sometimes a spirit seems to materialize.”[6]
One of the most beloved pieces of 12 Step literature is the collection of essays, Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, written by Wilson in the 1950s. This popular book is often called, simply, the “12X12.” While working on it, Wilson exchanged letters with Father Ed Dowling, a Catholic priest Bill often looked to for advice. In his letter of July 17, 1952, the A.A. cofounder informs Dowling he is receiving help with the book from the spirit world.
Wilson writes, “One turned up the other day calling himself Boniface. Said he was a Benedictine missionary and English. Had been a man of learning, knew missionary work and a lot about structures. I think he said this all the more modestly but that was the gist of it. I’d never heard of this gentleman but he checked out pretty well in the Encyclopedia. If this one is who he says he is—and of course there is no way of knowing—would this be licit contact in your book?”[7]
On July 24, 1952, Father Dowling responds, “Boniface sounds like the Apostle of Germany. I still feel, like MacBeth, that these folks tell us the truth in smaller matters in order to fool us in larger. I suppose that is my lazy orthodoxy.”[8]
In his August 2, 1952 letter, Wilson writes back, “…the spook business is no longer any burning issue as far as I am concerned.”[9] But then, Wilson casually mentions, “Without inviting it, I still sometimes get an intrusion such as the one I described in the case of the purported Boniface.”[10]
Bill Wilson, without knowing it, was paying the price for reaching out to unclean and lying spirits. The Lord had “set My Face against” him. (Leviticus 20:6) The Lord, who is a consuming fire, had found Wilson, ever the rebel against Christ, “detestable.” (Deuteronomy 18:12)
To some, this was long evident. Henrietta Seiberling, the woman who first introduced the A.A. cofounders to one another in 1935, had likely been aware of Bill Wilson’s unholy activities for years. While she had never particularly liked him, her July 31, 1952 letter resonates with her horror and disgust over his spiritual descent.
She writes of Wilson, “He imagines himself all kinds of things. His hand ‘writes’ dictation from a Catholic priest, whose name I forget, from the 1600 period who was in Barcelona, Spain—again, he told Horace Crystal he was completing the works that Christ didn’t finish, and according to Horace he said he was a reincarnation of Christ. Perhaps he got mixed in whose reincarnation he was. It looks more like the works of the devil but I could be wrong. I don’t know what is going on in that poor deluded fellow’s mind.”[11]
“And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper…” (Romans 1:28)
According to PASS IT ON, Bill Wilson considered that “spiritistic matters were no mere parlor game. It’s not clear when he first became interested in extrasensory phenomena; the field was something that Dr. Bob and Anne Smith were also deeply involved with. Whether or not Bill initially became interested through them, there are references to séances and other psychic events in the letters Bill wrote to [wife] Lois during that first Akron summer with the Smiths, in 1935.”[12]
Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob engaged in these practices starting in 1935. The 12 Steps were written in 1938. PASS IT ON actually raises the possibility that Wilson may have been introduced to these activities through Dr. Bob and his wife, Anne. Perhaps so, but it is clear all three were participating in séances (and other activities) during the same period they were involved with the pseudo-Christian Oxford Group. This is significant because the cofounders’ attendance at Oxford Group meetings has long been misrepresented as evidence of the Christian origin of Alcoholics Anonymous.
For those who have not read Dick B.’s books portraying the 12 Steps as Christian, Dick B. works very hard to show Bill Wilson’s biblical influences, his reliance on Reverend Sam Shoemaker, and so on. Since Wilson was not a Christian himself, Dick B. for years presented a “12-Steps-are-Christian-by-osmosis” approach.
In the last few years, however, Dick B. has decided to portray Bill Wilson as a Christian!
Francis Hartigan was the secretary for Lois Wilson, Bill’s wife, for thirteen years. He had many conversations with Lois about Bill. He writes, “[A.A. co-founder Bill Wilson's] belief in God might have become unshakeable, but he could never embrace any theology or even the divinity of Jesus, and he went to his grave unable to give his personal idea of God much definition. In this sense, he was never very far removed from the unbelievers.” (Bill W., by Francis Hartigan, pg. 123) (Bold mine)
Here is how PASS IT ON describes Bill Wilson and the arrival of the 12 Steps. “As he started to write, he asked for guidance. And he relaxed. The words began tumbling out with astonishing speed. He completed the first draft in about half an hour, then kept on writing until he felt he should stop and review what he had written.”[13]
According to PASS IT ON, Wilson asked for “guidance” as he began writing. But guidance from what? The unsaved Wilson was eager to receive messages and leadings from the spirit world. We see this in the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s.
We see in the 1940s that Wilson allowed unclean spirits to speak through him. We know from Wilson’s 1952 letter to Father Ed Dowling that the book, ‘Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions’ was influenced by a spirit called Boniface. How many more, then, of Wilson’s books and articles were demonically guided? Some? None? All?
One thing is certain. It is virtually impossible that a man engaged in practices the Lord finds so “detestable” that He promises to “set My Face against that person” could have been given these 12 Steps by Jesus Christ. (Deut. 18:10-12 and Lev. 20:6)
T.A. McMahon, Editor of the Berean Call, writes, “A.A.’s official biography indicates Bill Wilson received the details of the 12 Steps through spirit dictation. Does anyone see a simple, idolatrous problem here?”[14]
McMahon then addresses the well meaning effort to offer “Christ centered” 12 Step support groups. “But what about evangelicals just using the methodology the familiar spirit gave to Bill Wilson? Simple again: God condemns the source, and the approach is contrary to the way He wants to transform our lives. Furthermore, why turn to such a spiritually toxic system? Where are the evangelical pastors’ heads in this?”[15]
The evangelical pastors’ heads have been in books by Dick B., books which tend to downplay or ignore the many anti-Biblical ingredients that went into the simmering, sulphurous creation of Alcoholics Anonymous. In this article we have been examining spiritualism and the 12 Steps. We could just as easily point out A.A.’s other aberrant roots: the New Thought heresies, the swiss-cheese theology of the Oxford Group, Dr. Bob’s Masonic background, or even the dangerous meditative practices of Oxford Group/early Alcoholics Anonymous.
Okay, then should Christians even attend groups? Absolutely. We call them “Bible Studies.” A strong church can do much to help alcoholics and their families. Bondage to alcohol is no light thing. Our mistake has been to seek worldly and unholy solutions, even attempting to “Christianize” them, rather than relying on prayer, the Word of God, and the fellowship of the saints.
Endnotes:
- Alcoholics Anonymous Co-founders Were Not Christians, http://mywordlikefire.wordpress.com/2012/02/19/a-a-s-co-founders-were-not-christians/
- Dick B., Promotional for The Conversion of Bill W.
- Ernest Kurtz, Not-God, pg. 136
- PASS IT ON, Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., pg. 278-79
- Matthew J. Raphael, Bill W. and Mr. Wilson, pg. 159
- Ibid., pg. 159
- Robert Fitzgerald, S.J., The Soul of Sponsorship, pg. 59
- Ibid., pg. 59
- Robert Fitzgerald, S.J., The Soul of Sponsorship, pg. 61
- Ibid., pg. 61
- Henrietta Seiberling, 7/31/52 letter, http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-Henrietta_Seiberling.html
- PASS IT ON, Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., pg. 275
- PASS IT ON, Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., pg. 198
- T.A. McMahon, The Berean Call Newsletter
- Ibid.
The A.A. history articles:
LSD for “influx of God’s grace”: click_here_to_read
Does A.A. contradict the Bible? READ
Alcoholics Anonymous Co-Founders Were Not Christians: READ
Early A.A. Heresy: READ
Alcoholics Anonymous and Contemplative Spirituality: READ
Hard Truth About Alcoholics Anonymous: READ
Does Christ teach what A.A. teaches?
“We found that God does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us, the Realm of the Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men. When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God.” –From the “Big Book,” the A.A. “bible,” pg.46-47 (Bold mine)
Christ tells us: “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is BROAD that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.” (Matthew 7:13)
Yet, the A.A. Big Book (the A.A. “bible”) again makes a direct reference to this spiritual Broad Highway: “If our testimony helps sweep away prejudice, enables you to think honestly, encourages you to search diligently within yourself, then, if you wish, you can join us on the Broad Highway. With this attitude you cannot fail. The consciousness of your belief is sure to come to you.” (pg. 55) (Bold mine)
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is BROAD that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.” (Matthew 7:13)
At the start of just about every AA meeting that I have went to (many hundreds), there is read a test “If you want what we have” So, I honestly looked around at every person, listen to them, tried to see if there was anything that “they have” I wanted. This next comment does require true spiritual discernment but I will post it anyway:
I asked God to teach me directly about this and I saw that “the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law” was utterly not present, only satan’s fake recovery version that I will call “recovery fruit” which is “happy joyous and free” was at all these meetings.
One is real based on transformed hearts exclusively from The Lord, the other is simply self-generated, emotionally based and a natural byproduct of stopping frying one’s brain.
This showed me that God’s Holy Spirit was not present so, my question for anyone, since this is not God’s Spirit, what spirit is it?
Brian D. Kercheval
An earlier post asserted that the program is fail-proof, the individuals in the fellowship of Alcoholics are not. As an ex-attendee of AA, I am all too familiar with this arrogant and blasphemous claim. It was the first alarm bell that alerted me to the fact that there was something very wrong with AA. It claims for itself infallibility and in practice the true believers in what you accurately describe as its “Swiss cheese theology” often explicitly claim that it is a direct spiritual revelation from God, and the ONLY one that members must follow on pain of death. I was always struck by how in AA, whilst its own peculiar brand of Wilson-centered heretical religiosity was always actively promoted, any personal statement of Christian faith was strongly discouraged and oftenactually sneered at in the rooms. The AA “Big Book” was constantly read from and revered as a sacred text which superseded any other and I remember one lady actually being told to shut up by the group secretary and other members for having the temerity to quote something from the Bible that she had personally found helpful. by their works shall ye know them.
Alcoholics Anonymous has no monopoly on God. As far as the recovery rate, it is the only game in town. Make no mistake the program is fail proof, the people in it are not. The recovery rate was much higher before The Recovery INdustry started to send not only non alcoholics to AA but told them to stay on the first step, which is the only step that promises you will drink and non alcoholics that do not need God as the solution. The watered down AA, deciding to treat AA as a therapy self help session, that has been the major contributing factor as to a decline on the recovery rate. Your opinion is meaningless, your experience is priceless. big book enthusiast are stepping up. They spread truth. Our message is clear, when did it become okay to lie to the newcomer and tell him not to work the steps and find a higher power. The truth they you find God, or you die. Alcoholism is a progressive disease and you die for it. The bible is more full of inaccuracies than any other book. I believe in the mystics, to know God is to not know God. If I think I do, I cut the ring on myself.. The people who are doing this right are shepparding those to this incredible power that works. When people leave treatment after 20,000 where do you think they send them. To Alcoholics Anonymous, with their 20,000 dollar big book. AA is the last house on the block. and thank God when I got there, it turned out to be a castle.
If I want to drink I’ll go to a bar, if I want to worship the Lord I will go to a Christian Church, if I want to achieve sobriety (satisfied abstinence) I will go to an AA meeting. There main purpose is to stay sober and help others achieve sobriety. I have never been judged at an AA meeting like Christians do. Your not alcoholic…you don’t know what it’s like to crave alcohol. By the way, the word Christian is not used in the Bible yet it is thrown around so loosely as if it were. Should I be concerned that Moses was a murderer as was the Apostle Paul. Should I listen to these guy’s? The Bible was created by the Catholic Church, should I be concerned about that also! Mainstream Christianity has had so many questionable events through history should I question its validity. I am saved by faith, and I put that into action. I am a human being, imperfect in many ways as was all the Bible character’s. Now that I’m sober, and glad there are AA meetings everywhere and at all times of the day, one does not need to make an “appointment” to a “pastor” who was taught at colleges with “degree’s” So I go on evil 12 step calls and shows God’s love to a crying wife and hold a stinking drunk reeking of alcohol, just as someone did for me. I hug homosexuals at meetings like Christ healed and touched Leper’s to show them the Lords love. Why hang out in church all the time with people who smile and “say’ they love me at my best. However, what would they say if they saw me at my worst. AA is my mission field and its where God ( a German word, Gudan, meaning good) has called me. What purpose do you serve here arguing and proclaiming something you know nothing about. God loves the broken hearted and the destitute. Try going to an AA meeting after it lets out and bring a “stinking” drunk home with you, feed him and then tell him about Christ love. I am to reflect the Lords love to people whether the program is right or wrong. It is what it is people, as it was when our Savior walked the Earth. To take the time and effort to generate this ridiculous site to aid in your self righteous attitude that you somehow have the correct answer. I can honestly tell you I don’t know if the Bible is what people say it is. I wasn’t there when it all happened. I know it is true because I have faith that it is and because the Lord walks and talks with me. Because each experience is tested and the Lord calls the shots and I see the blessed outcome over time. There was no Bible before 1600′s what did all these beloved men and women do to get so close to God. They put that inner quest fot something larger into practice. “Fundamentalist Cristians” love to argue about spiritual matters they know nothing about. It’s easy to sit at a website and be smug about an imperfect program. I have never experienced any of these things that are being lied about here. It is out and out Hegelism here. It is also like wrestling with a pig in the mud…after a while you realize the pig likes it!
Not that many “heal” from it. Most keep drinking. And many take on the belief system of the higher power theology without ever gaining long term sobriety. The “god” most meet in AA is not the God of the Bible.
http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-times/article.php?articleid=3537
My question is this. If this program had an evil source, why do so many people heal from it? Why does it bear fruit? It seems that evil cannot produce good so why if this program is evil is it producing good? In other words, how can people meet God and their lives be changed by going to AA if He wasn’t there?
Thank you so much for the encouragement. We start from the Bible–not from our own understanding, or someone else’s understanding. Holy is the Lord.
Having to hear the same tired arguments of Christians saying AA can be used as a way to lead people to Christ. I have to say this: AA is not meant in any way to be a Christ centered program. You do not hear the Gospel, and there is no Biblical doctrine, because it claims that alcoholism is a disease. I believed their lies for far too long. Plenty of sober people die and face a Christless eternity everyday. This idea that alcoholics are special and need to attend AA is ridiculous and the result of our inability to discern the true from the false. If you truly care for an alcoholic or addict you will point them to the Cross. Jesus is the answer for man’s problem, which is we are in bondage to sin on the way to hell, drunk or addicted or not . Anything else is to lead them to destruction.
Thank you for sharing this information. For years friends of mine have been pressuring me to attend Celebrate Recovery, which is based off of AA and came out of Rick Warren’s church. After reading your articles here, I understand why I have always felt so uncomfortable with joining this “fad” that is spreading through our churches. I feel it is important to understand the “roots” of what we do, because those roots, still feed the growth…no matter how pretty we dress it up. Thank you again.
THANK YOU FOR THIS AWESOME WEBSITE!!!!
Thank you so much. It is very good to know this blog can make a difference. David, I don’t know if you have read this, but it is an article dealing with the co-founders, new thought, spiritualism, etc. http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-times/article.php?articleid=3537
The reason I examine so closely AA co-founders Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob Smith is because author Dick B. has written a number of books portraying these men as Christians. This has influenced many people.
Free from the bondage of homosexual sin, Tim. Free to repent if one should fall. Paul was writing about people who had, through the grace and power of Christ, turned from their sin, and served the Lord. As for installing that deal, that is beyond my techno-limitaions. Thank you for taking the time to read a long article and comments.
Here is Lyn’s testimony: http://iamhis-lyn.blogspot.com/2008/11/my-testimony-up-until-fall-of-2003-i.html
Here is my own: http://mywordlikefire.wordpress.com/2010/04/26/happy-hell-bound-homosexuals/
Above in the comments you said ” The 12 Steps are not of Christ. We are not to use them. I have been to the meetings, have heard all the potshots about Christians and the church. Yet this is just how homosexuals and alcoholics and thieves and many other sinners became free long before the 12 Steps were birthed. Christ is the answer. (1 Corinthians 6: 9-11)” – Homosexuals became “free” – err free from oppression? what do you mean by “free”? p.s. could you please install a subscribe to comments via email type plugin? thanks
To the author of this site, thanks. I’m in AA and a born again Christian. I read 2Cor6:14-17 and an alarm went off. I am researching and seeking consul on this issue. Saying goodbye to the program that helped me be sober and to some of the relationships I have is tough. Most of the arguments on this blog don’t address the polytheism AA promotes, rather how people do get led to Christ in AA. God is good in spite of AA dogma. Whether or not AA cofounders were Christians is irrelevant. AA dogma is false.
Just because some of AA’s “fruits” are now in Christ doesn’t mean the program is of the Lord. Even if AA was scripturally sound(which it is not), aside from the “god as we understood him” part, it would still be reason for a Christian to not participate…a little leaven…The “god as we understood him” part is idolatry. Christians cannot approve of this, eternity is forever and leading people in any direction they choose when it comes to god is cosmic treason. I committed to some people that helped me when I was a drunkard getting sober, to be patience on whether or not I would leave AA while I seek consul. Out of respect for their love and grace to me, I will exhaust my efforts to discern the issue….I am extremely close to displaying a calculated reason for my exit in AA.
Thanks for your comment. AA did not come from the God of the Bible, and Step 11 is a bad example to try and prove the point with.
Step 11 clearly states their is but one God. That is the God of the bible who created AA, and carries the drunks into sobriety and when they are willing into a relationship with His son Jesus.
Tommy: Some of the most arrogant, self-riteous people I have ever met were AA groupies! I don’t think the author is being self-riteous by warning Christians to stay away from it. I don’t think he looks down on alcoholics, either. I understand some of you who support AA feel we are judging you, but that couldn’t be further from the truth! It’s for the love of brothers and potential brothers that we warn you. You don’t need AA as a mediator between you and God, you need Jesus Christ as your savior and God the Holy Spirit as your teacher. Engage Him via 1 John 1:9 and HE ALONE will highlight the scriptures that can help you recover. BTW, confession in 1 John 1:9 is to God directly, not to some frock-wearing paedophile (Jesuit Infiltrator) in a box.
For the person that came to Christ after attending AA:
But that was God’s ONLY reason for you being there. God obviously used someone at that AA meeting to give you the gospel…….it could possibly have been someone who was not there by choice, either. You should see how angry the folks in group get when you tell them Christ is the only answer. You’d think the devil himself was throwing a tantrum 
Wonderful!
I completely agree with the author. As believers in Christ, we are obligated to not only stay away from these Luciferian groups, but do what we can to evangelize and get people out of there. You know what AA reminds me of? Freemasonry. It has it’s own doxology, it’s secretive, and like in Freemasonry, you have to believe in some kind of ‘god’ in order to join. In addition to that, the courts can ORDER you to attend, where you will be forced to obey their doctrines of demons, aka the 12 steps. God bless you, author for opening people’s eyes! Thanks also to God the Holy Spirit, second person of the trinity, who through this author is bringing this to the attention of others in order that in these last days we might ‘come out of her’ whether it be AA or ROME.
There is at some point little use in bringing this to AA people, who are very dedicated to the 12 Step religion. Scripture means nothing, unless it can be twisted to support pro-AA propaganda.
So, for those who love the Word, and do want to obey a Savior who will never let them down: 2 Corinthians 6: 14-17, Galatians 1: 6-9, Isaiah 42:8.
AA has brought about an acceptance of any and all gods, a far cry from this country’s former understanding.
It is interesting how Scripture can be so totally ignored by some of you. AA is another gospel–it teaches alcoholics to reach out to some power-something-in order to get better.
This is not what the Bible teaches. Christ alone is Savior. 2 Corinthians 6:14-17 is very clear about spiritually joining with a pagan religion. “What does Christ have to do with Belial?” Nothing–unless, of course, you are in AA and worship right next to Belial or whatever god or idols….
Keith, your attempt to equate belonging to the 12 Step religion with being a missionary to Haiti is not accurate–but a fairly common defense for those in 12 Step spirituality.
Yes, AA desperately needs missionaries–but not people who bow to this system who think they are serving as missionaries. There is a hybrid effect for many in AA who call Christ “higher power”–doctrine is all gobbledee gooked because it is tainted with 12 Step spirituality.
We are warned so strongly about what happens to those who bring another gospel besides the Biblical message of Salvation. Galatians 1:6-9
Alcoholics Anonymous–the 12 Step spiritual system you defend in spite of Scriptural mandate-has eaten away at the Body of Christ.
Emergent leader Phyllis Tickle acknowledges this.
In ‘The Fall of the Evangelical Nation,’ secular author Christine Wicker credits Alcoholics Anonymous with “hastening the fall of the evangelical church.”
AA has watered down understanding and reverence for the Biblical God.
Wicker states A.A.’s 12 Step program “slowly exposed people to the notion that they could get the [higher power] without the dogma, the doctrine, and the outdated rules. Without the church in fact.” This has removed the authority and influence of “the preacher and the Bible and tradition.”
After all, why bow to a God that always holds you accountable for sin? Why not cobble together a deity of your own? And this is just what happens in AA.
“But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons…” (1 Timothy 4:2)
This thing you are so ardently defending is assaulting God’s people. It always has. This is its purpose.
I write to warn those who can hear. Those who will not even look at Scriptures like 2 Corinthians 6:14-17, or Galatians 1:6-9, or 1 Corinthians 1: 6:9-11, but who look to the Big Book, there is nothing left to say.
I praise the Lord that He has allowed some to hear.
This is how it will be. Forgive me if I don’t answer any more–except I will put the quotes on the blog as to how AA is destroying the church.
Of course it is–it will be a big part of the coming one world religion. Any god will fit.
And what are your credentials that make your opinion so important? What about your history? What is your story of addiction and recovery? Do you talk about anything but AA 70 years ago? What is your suggestion for the alcoholics and addicts still struggling? The 12 step groups are always reaching out to them, going on commitments at rehabs etc..and that is effective because they can identify with them, can you imagine a holy roller trying to get them to listen? I’m with you on Christ is the answer, but you seem blind to the fact that many people enter the kingdom everyday through the 12 steps (yes the kingdom, faith in Jesus Christ). Should missionaries not go to Haiti because they practice VooDoo, or the Middle East because the are Muslims? It would be nice to see you come up with something original and not quoting authors. If God truly put this burden on your heart it should be quite easy. If it is not a burden from God, but just another “my way is the only way” Christian feeding their own addiction to religious knowledge (but lack of faith lived), it will just pass into obscurity.
Since your main objective here seems to be the history of AA and speculations about Bill W’s beliefs, which can only be speculation, since he is not alive to defend himself. What about the fruit of AA? What about Sister Ignatia?
To all…one more thought. The days are truly EVIL just look at Ft. Hood the shooting that are everyday and the child rapes and murders and the gany and porn and addiction. THE DAYS NOW are so WICKED that we are in PERIL. Satan loves to have us caught up in SIN that we think we need every self help and programs and steps and so on. When we really need to quit whining and suck it up no matter how horrific are life has been. If we truly want to be set free THE GREAT I AM is able. I love and care for you all but as for me and my house we will OBEY and take up His Cross and by His grace alone walk IN HIS STEPS, and WWJD in this world today…..Kevin
To All…I do agree and believe that folks do come to Christ via AA & CR and I have seen it the CR group that I attend and sometimes lead. But what about the ones in AA that are not saved or desire to be. Many faithful saints are caught up in the Benny Sin teachings as with Copeland and Hagin and so many others. Private revelations and teaching to a select few….mmmm! So we have these folks caught up in the RW diven life and the feel good gospel and on and on. The ones trapped are TRUE christains caught up in the LIE and with these very seductive teachings. AA and CR and the 12 steps are leading so many just to clear up “our” problem of addictions. Who Christ has set free is FREE indeed. Jesus with the woman who was to be stoned. He said go and now find a 12 step program to help you with the things that I AM not really able to handle. NO…NO.. He said neither do I condem you BUT go and SIN no more. I myself included feel sometimes like the GREAT I AM is not able or willing to save or heal us. This is very SIMPLE bible FACTS. Again it is hard to say to those (me) to stay caught in the old lie that it takes time to be forgiven and made a new creature in Christ. He message is so clear and easy “for my yoke is easy and my burden is light” mmmm. we can not do enough steps or works to ever feel worthy of His love and forgiveness. Now is the time to pull others out of the fire and enter into the Kingdom of God by FAITH and forgiveness from Him, self and others. I do not want to trash anyone but we have to take the SIN issue in our life’s and others as a matter of life and death. It is PAID in FULL and is FINISHED. Recieve the GIFT freely and OPEN IT and ENJOY and as I do CELEBRATE RECOVERY but I am HEALED but I am to go and sin no more….Kevin
How can you pretend to proclaim the truth, when you won’t even post real honest experiences of changed lives on here? Yet you use Bill W’s claimed experience to discredit, that God works within, AA. Who cares about Bill W. he is not AA, it is widely known that he had issues, and he was only one member of early AA. He knows the truth, He is the truth, he will reveal the truth and the truth will set you free.
Tommy,
The false fruit of AA can be found in 2 Kings 22 and 23. King Josiah, ONCE HE READ THE WORD, obeyed God and threw the idols out of the temple.
What we have happening is the coming division, the rise of the false church. 12 Step spirituality will merge with emergent and contemplative and other systems. A Holy God is telling His people “Come out and be separate.”
Why can’t you admit the God uses AA to lead some to Him? Who cares about Swedenborg? What does this prove? Take a look at the fruit of AA, and be honest and stop being selective of your posts or don’t have a blog.
God bless you Barbara.
Fair enough, but it is still how I got there and I am not alone. Souls are saved by God’s grace through AA, as for the ones that are not, I guess they weren’t going to get there anyway?. I just don’t think AA is all evil and does all harm, I see too much good take place and I think there are more brought to Christ than you would like to admit. I hate to tell you but I’ve seen more souls saved through my home group, than my church.
Hey Barbara, the few who turn to the Biblical Christ are evidence of His grace. But it is also an effective decoy, because people are often given the impression that this is how it works for most.
This is not so. Many in AA speak of Christ as “higher power” but their loyalty is really with the idol of AA. A transference of faith has taken place.
Again, not speaking specifically of you–but I have seen this over and over. A saint gauges it this way:
http://mywordlikefire.wordpress.com/a-a-s-gospel-or-the-gospel-of-jesus/
Is the history of AA more important than the many souls it has brought to Christ? The fact that many have been led to Christ from being in AA can be backed up by living breathing facts, not opinions on paper (IT IS FACT, THEREFORE NOT DEBATABLE). So should Should the unbiblical and un-Christ-like actions of believers 1000 years ago during the crusades still be held against Christians today? There is much going on today in churches across the US that is not biblical, denominations themselves are un-biblical. There are scores of Christian leaders being found out for the heretics they are homosexuals, pedophiles the list goes on,a nd you want to attack AA? Now that is truly funny, wake up and smell the coffee. You will only strengthen AA with your self righteous articles. Anyway enough of my sarcasm, I guess we all agree that Christ is the answer the only thing to dispute is are we part of his Kingdom and being his hands and feet or religious fanatics running our mouths, trying to claim our own selfish spiritual position? Are we willing to risk it all like Christ for others? If AA disappeared in would hurt the body of Chirst not strengthen it, dogmatism, hypocrisy and a judgemental attitude are what hurt the body.
Interesting point of view Jack, AA was also my stepping stone, God used it to draw me to Him. I also don’t know what any other solution would be??
Jack, can you really say your Salvation “would not have happened if I didn’t start in AA.” All who come to Jesus are drawn by the Father, as you know. He has His way, and a polytheistic religion which Christians are part of is simply not in the Bible.
AA, full of cool folks such as yourself, is deceptive. It is a means of weakening the church. It has been very effective. It does not help to have authors giving it a Biblical origin that never happened.
Thanks for taking the time to comment. I probably am not going to comment anymore as I have to write.
I understand the point of view on this page, however, what seems to be constantly over looked is that many people have come to AA and through working the steps began to seek a relationship with God, which led them to accepting Jesus, I am one of them. It would not have happened if I didn’t start in AA. Also after a short time of being saved, I became just like the author of this page, very against AA’s spirituality. However over time, I saw people coming into church with addictions and accepting Christ, but the body didn’t provide the type of support, they needed and can get at AA, all backslide, some are dead. So what is the solution, other than just repeatedly attacking AA’s history or un-biblical spirituality, and saying Jesus is the answer, this is all known. What is the solution to get these people to Christ. AA was my stepping stone, I would not have come into church given the time of day to someone telling my about Jesus, until my hard heart and thick head had been cracked by the working of the steps. This is true for almost all my close friends, who now worship and serve Christ. So rather than AA bash, could you please tell me a solution? I have not been able to figure one out. And I wish you would post your story it may be helpful to some and shed some more light on your position.
God Bless
Kevin,
I praise the Lord. God is calling His people out, as this thing continues to rise. Stay tune, as we are going to be entering Refute Dick B. Month, where much of the misinformation about AA and the 12 Steps will finally be dealt with.
Yes, thank you Jack. We will be refuting all these shortly.
Metaphors of the Bible
The Bible uses a number of metaphors to describe our relationship to God at various stages. If you’ll notice, they ascend in a stunning way:
Potter and clay. At this level we are merely aware that our lives are shaped—even broken—by a powerful hand. There isn’t much communication, just the sovereignty of God at work.
Shepherd and sheep. At this stage we feel provided for, watched over, cared about. But beyond that, a sheep has little by way of true intimacy with the Shepherd. They are altogether different creatures.
Master and servant. Many, many believers are stuck in this stage, where they are committed to obey, but the relationship is mostly about receiving orders and instructions and carrying them out.
Father and child. This is certainly more intimate than being a servant; children get the run of the house, they get to climb on Daddy’s lap. These fortunate souls understand God’s fatherly love and care for them. They feel “at home” with God.
Friends. This stage actually opens up a deeper level of intimacy as we walk together with God, companions in a shared mission. We know what’s on his heart; he knows what’s on ours. There is a maturity and intimacy to the relationship.
Bridegroom and bride (lovers). Here, the words of the Song o£ Songs could also describe our spiritual intimacy, our union and oneness with God. Madame Guyon wrote, “I love God far more than the most affectionate lover among men loves his earthly attachment.”
Where would you put your relationship with God? Try not to get stuck as so many do at the servant level, when there is so much more to be embraced.
I have seen so many warnings become clear since I was saved in 1972 as a young man/ The New Age is here in and the Emergence Church. Who would have believed evangelical churchs would ordain openly homosexual men and women to pastor and lead others. The one world religion is in the final stages for the false prophet. The whole church is in denial of the time we are living. I cam go on and on about this and that teaching or teachers and TBN and Joel O or Oprah. Just stand back and look at the world through the eyes of Christ. Folks we are here and it has invaded the whole world and YES even the church. It is hard to hear about AA and CR being part of the BIG LIE. We are now the intolerant one since we are proclaiming ONLY one way to Christ and for freedom from our sins. I have ask several pastors in the SBC on their take on Masons here in the south that are active members of SBC bodies. Very, very touching BUT what would St. Paul do or say about all of this. The book by Dave Hunt “The Secduction of Christainanity” was the big opener for plus so many things that the church is taking hook, line and sinker. Sorry for being long winded I could write about this for days. I do not beat around the bush but I do so in love and not as a pharisee. In Christ……Kevin M
In 1934, just before he entered Towns Hospital for the last time as a patient, Alcoholics Anonymous Founder Bill Wilson went to the altar at Calvary Rescue Mission in New York. And, in the words of his wife Lois Wilson, “And he went up, and really, in very great sincerity, did hand over his life to Christ.” (“Lois Remembers: Searcy, Ebby, Bill & Early Days.” Recorded in Dallas, Texas, June 29 1973, Moore, OK: Sooner Cassette, Side One). In the earliest Akron A.A. days, Bill Wilson stated: “Henrietta [Dotson, wife of A.A. Number Three], the Lord has been so wonderful to me, curing me of this terrible disease that I just want to keep talking about it and telling people.” Alcoholics Anonymous, 4th ed., 191. On pages 216-217 of Alcoholics Anonymous, 3rd ed., a Cleveland A.A. newcomer asked Bill Wilson what it was “that worked so many wonders” and said, “hanging over the mantel was a picture of Gethsemane and Bill pointed to it and said, ‘There it is’.” The picture was a painting of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane (Matthew 26:36-39). In the pioneer A.A. Akron Fellowship, every member was required to accept Jesus Christ as his personal lord and saviour.
Thank you so much. May He bless you richly.
Well we don’t agree about AA or our interpretation of scripture or adherence to the law. However we both love Jesus and want others to have the same. The body has many parts and each has it’s own job, God Bless as you do yours.
But AA isn’t a Christian denomination. It is a polytheistic religion. It was ruled religious by the U.S. Supreme Court and fits a theological, sociological, and even a dictionary definition of religion.
Christ never tells us we can join a religion or spiritual system where other gods are worshiped, and He is at best one “god” among many. Look at 2 Corinthians 6:14-17, or Galatians 1:6-9.
I know you love the Lord. We have been told it is okay to belong to something like AA when in fact it is Biblically forbidden. Does AA need missionaries? Yes. Absolutely.
Thank you for your courtesy and civility. We don’t get a lot of that around here.
I agree Christ is the answer. And there is a desperate need to get Christ back into AA, not interested in disputing it’s history, it doesn’t matter, but I’m sure you will come back with it does, we disagree. Christianity was never meant to have denominations, it does not bring unity it brings division (work of satan), and all over the small issues not the big. Most denominations when researched have founders with a less than Christ like background, look at the Assembly of God for instance. But that doesn’t make Christianity bad as a whole. Bottom line AA has saved and changed the lives of millions, and will continue to do so, however the success rate has gone done as it got away from Christ. The early success rate was about 70% now it’s lucky to be 7%, however that is still higher the the success rate of people with addictions being set free by going to church only. Don’t think I’m against church, far from it! Just stating the facts. I guess what I’m trying to say is I share your burden in some ways, I want to see people truly set free from addictions, but coming against AA is just not going to work, bringing the truth into it may. To simply say Christians must stay away, is a weak excuse, should people not go into the mission fields because they will encounter other religions of course not. I just think your time could be spent much more wisely to try and reach the lost for this burden you carry (and many of us carry it).
No, I am not an alcoholic any longer. Who the Son sets free is free indeed. Barbara, I know it is a hard thing to stomach, especially when one has friends etc via the 12 Steps, and I have no doubt you wish the very best for people.
And so do I. I have been addicted to heroin, alcohol, and have slept on the sidewalks and in the alleys of four cities.
The 12 Steps are not of Christ. We are not to use them. I have been to the meetings, have heard all the potshots about Christians and the church. Yet this is just how homosexuals and alcoholics and thieves and many other sinners became free long before the 12 Steps were birthed. Christ is the answer. (1 Corinthians 6: 9-11)
Yes, I have heard this from members of the 12 Step religion many, many times. Thank you for taking the time to comment.
Are you serious, you think that the source of the 12 steps in demonic? Opinion’s aside, the steps are a set of principles that help one get beyond the guilt and shame enough to look to God for help, identify their greatest sins, so they can be dealt with, and try to fix as much damage in the past as possible. Do you really think God is not working within AA? I think you question his Sovereignty, he can use anything for good when he is sought and the steps are to get one seeking. Are you an alcoholic?
It saddens me that the author calls himself a christian, while he slays the young.
Kevin, you have really encouraged me. Christ is the answer, and God’s people need to quit being so ashamed. May our King guide and protect you.
I have been digging deeper into the deception of the “12 Steps” I must agree now of their origins. When I was totally delivered from alcohol I was never a firm believer in AA for most of the same reasons you and others present. But I in started a few years back with CR because I said WOW a 12 Step program with Christ. But I have been at a crossroad with the whole concept of recovery, sin, disease concept and the whole nine yards and felt it was time to step back and really ask the Lord to show me so that I can clearly and effectively minister to those caught and shackled to the bondage of these sins. I have long been a watchman on the wall in these End Times but since “my recovery” has been number one in my life and the desire to minister with the Power of Gods Holy Spirit than all of the vain pyschobable out their today. Since 1972 I was saved but was not discipled in the right way and so forth and I always struggled with my sin of alcohol until 1992 when I knew that I knew that this had to go. I have a powerful testimony of my life caught in sin and also my life ib Christ. But just to close I have now after a few years of seeing the RW’s influence in the Church. I have to step back and see this as just another attack from Satan since the the strongholds are massive and demonic from porn to beer to sports and on and on. Thank you for the breakthrough as I have been in sorts with this thing of sin and disease in addictions. I do not intend to know the answer to this problem but only to call sin what it is and to love as Christ would love and to forgive as He did. Time is so short to get caught up in the recovery craze and industry and 12 step theology. But to be totally committed to the truth of the matter at hand. Yes AA and other 12 steps are so broad I find it interesting how on can be caught up in it but when I step back I get a clearer picture of why this is not working because of seeing folks still suffering while using the steps. God Bless and Thank You and I pray thet we may share some more.
http://mywordlikefire.wordpress.com/2009/10/29/bible-not-celebrate-recovery/
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. There are many such as yourself who love the Lord in Celebrate Recovery. The demonic origin of the 12 Steps is reason enough not to use them, and placing “Christ” as “higher power” does not change their origin.
If you use the “disease” model, that is, if I understand correctly what you have written, then the emphasis is not on the sin, but on the illness.
Kevin, God bless you. Thank you for all you have helped. We are going to be in strong disagreement over this, and I have yet to write extensively about this. It is coming.
Ladies and Gentleman……..Our Lord tells us to go beyond every “jot and tittle” to the more weightier manners. I happen to lead a Celebrate Recovery Minisitry and use the 12 Steps. We have powerful Spirit filled meetings and group sessions in which Christ Jesus is high and lifted up and we are set free from addictions by the Power of His shed Blood. I and many other who use the steps and a medical “disease” have the longest recovery than any secular and Christ Based “legalistic” programs. I have over 17 years of deliverance from addictions and my MD. friend has over 25 years. It is sad to witness a Christ Centered but non 12 step and medical “disease concept” program with very little positive recovery. Yes they do Love them but on on the same level as theKJV only folks. Please give some slack to us. We are very well versed in the WORD and are aware of Satans devices. Just a note to chew on. Over 60 to 70 percent of all Evangelicals are addicted to PORN many other IDOLS such as sports. I do not judge or condem but we are in a real live battle for the souls of man and women. Lets all dig a little deeper in HIS WORD and WWJD and walk in HIS STEPS
One more comment about the attempts to repudiate A.A. by claiming my titles don’t cover its history. If the writer looked at the first page of my main website, he would see the various sources of Big Book ideas. If he read my books, he would see the wide variety of materials early AAs and Dr. Bob studied. If he looked at the facts instead of speculating about them, he would find that, most assuredly, Dr. Bob was a Christian from his earliest days. http://www.dickb.com/drbobofaa. So too, Bill
Wilson belonged to and attended Congregational Churches, Sunday school, daily chapel, and was president of the YMCA. That he became a Christian by accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour is quite clear from his decision for
Christ at the altar of Calvary Rescue Mission in New York. See http://www.dickb.com/newlight.shtml.
The problem with the author’s approach is not what he argues about; it has to do with his abysmal ignorance of A.A. history, A.A.’s Christian roots, the early A.A. Christian Fellowship; and the difference between these and what was embodied in the publication of 1939.Alas, there’s no hope for this writer since he has no been promulgating his misstatements for quite some time.
There is little point in dealing with the misstatements by the author who still chooses to break anonymity, distort my books, and focus on the spiritualism of Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob. He could just as well focus on the drug dealing, burglaries, auto accidents, divorces, infidelity, and other endless carnal activities of Christians and non-Christians. Alcoholics –drunk or sober–have usually done it all. That’s a major precept of A.A. and in the Bible. Take a look at James 4:7-10, which were important verses in early A.A. For me, the important fact is that there are tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Christians in A.A. today who want and need to know the origins of A.A. in the rescue missions, the YMCA, the Salvation Army, United Christian Endeavoer Society, and the Christian evangelism in New England. These ideas were translated into the youthful Christian training of A.A.’s Christian cofounders and then into the Original A.A. Christian Fellowship program in Akron. If anyone wishes to see the documentation and learn the facts, they are certainly available in most of my 35 titles and 250 artidcles on the Biblical history, roots, and successes of searly A.A. (http://www.dickb.com/titles.shtml). God Bless, Dick B.
Thank you, Andy. It is the most incredible thing. For years A.A. was allowed to portray itself as a “spiritual program,” even though it can be defined theologically as religion per se. The courts and probation officers would not budge on this. Finally, in 1999, the U.S. Supreme Court let stand a ruling that A.A. is religious in nature.
But the damage had been done. So many court ordered involuntary converts…
Thank you for your cogent and well thought out comments on this subject. Many people resent the fact that Alcoholics Anonymous intrudes a “spiritual” agenda into what claims to be a simple inoccuous support group, but miss the point that it is really an aberrant, heretical religion in its own right. As you explain, it is incompatible with Christian belief, despite claims to the contrary in itsliterature.
Another excellent artice! Thankfully, the Lord is raising up those who will defend the Word of God and who will not compromise the Truth for a “solution” that has been “Christianized” and is NO solution at all! Alcoholism is a euphemism for “drunkenness”…this is what God calls it. It is not a disease from which a person “recovers”…it is a SIN from which only the Lord Jesus Christ will deliver us! AMEN!
the aahistorian who responded is either Dick B. or someone from his web site. It is unfortunate that Dick in all his writing leaves out any references to anything not within his agenda. He leaves out the spiritualism, new age and everything else not fitting the specific message he writes. He also writes tha all the founding members surrendered to the Christ on their knees. This is not true. Irv M., a Jewish early member sponsored by Clarence Snyder did not accept the Christ and neither did Jimmy B. or Hank P. and multitudes of other non-believer founding members. Dick ignores these influential and important early members.
Just like Secret Agent Orange, Dick leaves out that which does not agree with their individual agendas. Both tell only half truths and leave out the balance of the story. Even Clarence Snyder was not a fundementalist evangelical until AFTER he married his last wife Grace. His early writing and talks were very different than those written or spoken after his marriage. In a letter to Hank P. written in 1939, Clarence stated that the new meeting he started that May did not stress religion or spiritual matters but focused more on Fellowship and recovery. While the Oxford Group was considered by many as a First Century Christian Fellowship, AA was not.
[...] Tragically, much of the Christian acceptance of A.A. has taken place due to the prolific writing of author and A.A. apologist Dick B. and others. Any and all early Christian influence on A.A. has been glamorized and magnified, until all people hear today is that the early A.A. cofounders were Christians. They were not. http://mywordlikefire.wordpress.com/2008/09/24/seances-spirits-and-12-steps [...]
[...] A.A.’s Step 3 states, “Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. Jesus Christ is never mentioned in the 12 Steps. This is not surprising considering the source from which the 12 Steps originated. http://mywordlikefire.wordpress.com/2008/09/24/seances-spirits-and-12-steps/ [...]
Sad it is that this author chooses the ad hominem fallacy of attacking author Dick B. by name and by personal references and ignores the contents of his books. Sadder still is his seeming inability to distinguish between Christians and the sins of Christians. See Romans 8. And every more sad is his failure to understand that there are tens of thousands of Christians in A.A. who do not espouse or practice spiritualism, don’t have the slightest knowledge of what Bill Wilson, acting as a carnal Christian, did or did not do. These tens of thousands of Christians in A.A. believe in the one true living God–just as the early AAs did. They have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour–just as the early AAs were required to do. They study the Bible, pray, and seek such revelation as the Creator and His son choose to impart–just as t he early AAs did. And they are bewildered by the motives and lack of hstorical knowledge of this author. See Dr. Bob of Alcoholics Anonymous.
My name is John, I do not have much time to respond to emails. My articles are primarily for those in the Body of Christ. The Lord is warning His people. It is time to come and be separate. Alcoholics Anonymous has been ruled as religious by the U.S. Supreme Court and fits every definitiion as such. This means Christians who attend A.A. are in two separate religions. The 12 Steps have diluted the beliefs of many.
Thank you for taking the time to comment.
We would be prepared to forward emails, but because you remain anonymous, it is unfair to those to whom we forward them to, to not disclose your identity.
Thank you for taking the time to deal with this issue. It has been my experience that many are simply unable to leave this religious system, despite the fact that it is clearly Biblically forbidden. (2 Corinthians 6:14-17, Galatians 1:6-9)
When people enter A.A. they are taught there is no other way, and Christians, so many Christians, come to see sobriety as impossible without A.A. There is a real transference of faith.
Hello. I found your article on the AA to be interesting as so passed it along to a few people that I thought may also we willing learn. However, I found that it sparked an emotional backlash, especially from ex-alcoholics who used the system.
I was wondering that if you were interested, in addressing their objections I could email you them for your scrutiny. Their demurrals do all seem emotion-based however they do seem to run along similar lines.
Your consideration of this is greatly appreciated.